Overcoming Trauma: Part 3

This is our last installment on overcoming trauma.  We have an amazing guest, author and therapist, Sharon Hersh.  Join us as we discuss the process of finding hope after trauma.  

Transcript

Intro: 0:01

Globally, one in every eight people suffer from a mental disorder, anxiety and depression affect people from all walks of life. All ages, all ethnicities, and we're here to talk about it. This is a quiet chaos podcast, from anxiety to depression, from disorders to marriage, and everything in between we're talking about we're talking about it. Oh, really raw, and we'll have some fun. Let's do it. This is the quiet chaos podcast. And now your host, author, therapist, international speaker, Jason R. Solomon.

Jason Sullivan: 0:49

Welcome to the quiet chaos podcast. This is your host, Jason Sullivan. And today we have a very special guest, Sharon Hirsch. Sharon, it is a pleasure to have you. And

Sharon Hersh: 1:02

so good to be with you.

Jason Sullivan: 1:03

It's been a while. And it's always so much fun. We, we we've gotten a lot of emails, in our last interview, really requesting you to come back. And so we're so happy to have you.

Sharon Hersh: 1:18

Well, I love being with you. So this is going to be good.

Jason Sullivan: 1:22

Well, we've been talking about trauma and recovery. We've covered the intro of the basics of trauma, the anxieties that come with it, the tears that come with it. We've talked about re parenting. And re parenting was a fascinating topic. Because the line of trauma through our lives seems really thick. It's a very broad line and affects a lot of things. And I wanted to talk with you a little bit and I want to get your feedback, because you always have amazing insight on these things. What does hope look like for people who are overcoming trauma.

Sharon Hersh: 2:05

And I love that we're talking about hope, because as therapists we spend a lot of time in the dark in the work. And it can be and because the work takes time. Hope can sometimes be eclipsed. And so I do want people to hear that wherever you are in the process. If you're just starting to identify trauma, and I'm sure you talked about the trauma can be a large significant event that shakes your world or it can be a lot of small events that happen over time, that kind of catch up with you. trauma can come with a capital T that you absolutely know it's there, or it can come with a small t, and you're sitting in a therapist office or listening to a podcast like this, and maybe experiencing a general malaise or anxiety. Or all of a sudden, I'm thinking about one of my clients who came to see me because she just was so anxious about being with her family. And she felt guilty about it. And as we began to talk, I think it might be good to tell a little bit of her story to get into how because as we began to talk as often is true with many of us, she didn't grow up in a perfect family. And so her mother had had significant mental health challenges. And her father stayed busy at work and maybe abuse substances a little bit too much. And by the time she was in early high school, he decided that he couldn't handle it anymore. And so her parents got divorced. And she was kind of left with her mother, who was bipolar, had a lot of manic episodes was quite possibly schizophrenic. And she was invited to visit her father, but but told by him, I have a new family now. And you're welcome to visit but this is not your family. And she was also involved in a religious community that was very interested in what she believed, but didn't really know how to ask about what she was feeling. And so when she showed up in my office, we talked about all those parts of trauma. There's the trauma of not really attaching with a mother or a father of not feeling like you're wanting by your parents or your siblings of not feeling like what is going on. Inside matters. So no wonder there was anxiety, and especially anxiety when she was supposed to be with her family. So we began to go through a process that I think leads to hope. And so I'd love to unpack that with you.

Jason Sullivan: 5:22

I would love this. And I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned how she was really disowned to the point of being told this is not your family. Yes. This is something that words like this go through you. They challenge your concept, not just of your connection with other people, but your value as a person. How, how does that play out when someone is looking at life goals, or, let's say, their value in a relationship, whether it's a religious relationship, whether it's an interpersonal relationship, or even a romantic relationship?

Unknown: 6:05

Where you, you are not emotionally available, you learn you can't be emotionally available? Because how could you survive that, that that's what you just described is horrific, being disowned. And so you're not emotionally available to yourself, first of all, and so that leads to the sense of, I really am alone. It's up to me, I've got to figure this out. And some people do that, look, look good doing that for a while until we crash and burn. That would be my experience. And some people completely fall apart and experience depression and addiction, and maybe anti person, anti personality disorders. And so, but this woman, she just kind of got married, joined another religious community, similar to what she grew up in, and was just not emotionally attached to herself. So one of the signs that you have trauma is when there are things that you do not allow yourself to feel. And she would come in and say, I'm just so embarrassed that I got so angry at work today. And I'd say, Tell me about that. And she would describe some small exchange. And I'd say that doesn't sound bad to me. But I knew it was horrific to her, because that was something she wasn't allowed to feel. Because if she was already disowned, imagine if she became angry about it. So anger is often the shield for deep sadness. And when you got that shield up, anxiety ensues. And so we began the process of naming. And this is the first step to hope it doesn't sound like it, but we're gonna get there I promise of naming her deaths. The death of a family of belonging, the death of trustee, the death of maybe a religion that was really given any meaning to her life. And even though that can seem hard, rebirth does not come and tell. We can name our deaths, then we can start saying, Wow, your parents disowned you, and you're still here. You created a family. And you have come to a therapist, you're seeking meaning, even though everyone in your life said, don't look at the meaning. And so we began to name those rebirths. And in the process that creates grief. Like, oh, that's not the way it was supposed to be for a 14 year old girl. That's not the way that's not what you're supposed to get from your religious system. That's not what you're supposed to experience when your family's coming to see you. And that, right there is a lot of the work of therapy. And then what happens and this is why we don't get to help is we just go back and do the things we knew what to do. We go back and pick back up the tools being the good soldier of being the good child or being the high performer, or of not talking about certain parts of our story. And so I, I said to her, I said, so when you told your father that it really hurt you. And he said, You weren't a part of his family, just at all, I never told him that. Which I knew. But that's going back and picking up behaviors of what we think allowed us to survive, if I don't talk about it. If I don't feel certain things, then we can survive it. But you can only sustain that for so long. And that's why this anxiety was coming up. So I just asked her, is it scary to just grieve that something that happened to you shouldn't have happened. That's a simple way of defining trauma.

Jason Sullivan: 11:04

I like that. I recently did a paper on the overlay of grief on physiology. I did it on purpose. Not to not to go away from emotion, cognition and experience. But actually the opposite. The goal was to show that that grief is so thorough, that our body grieves on cellular and atomic levels.

Unknown: 11:40

Oh, you're gonna love this story? Oh, I can't wait. Your paper on because she kind of gets stuck there with like, I can talk about this to you, you know, maybe we'll change religious institutions, maybe I won't see my family making some behavioral changes. But you see, that doesn't give us hope either. Because in order for a true healing of trauma to occur, it needs to sweep through every part of us, it needs to touch that 14 year old girl. It needs to touch that seven year old girl who was so confused by her mother's mental illness. So how does that happen? And you hit it right on the head, it has to be embodied in order for trauma to be healed. So we start with ideas. In therapy, we start with imagination. But if it does not become incarnation, in other words, if it does not get lived out, in our bodies, so in spirit, will how's that going to happen for this woman, her father is not going to change his mind. He's probably not going to say sorry, her mother is mentally ill. She's not getting better. So this is where we need community. We need people. So I asked her to join a community group that was meeting every week to process to tell our stories truly. And she just started talking about your love this, she started to that her family was coming to visit and she was anxious. And as she started talking, she was sitting on the couch and she started to curl up almost in this fetal position on the couch. And she just kind of even got sleepy. And I stopped the the group and I, I asked her, I said, Can we just notice what is happening in the room? And what's going on with you? And she just said, I'm just feeling so anxious and she began to describe it in her body. Her heart was pounding. And as she said that, I just asked everyone in the room, what it would be like to be with her. And as she put her hand on her heart. Everyone in the room put their hand on their heart well. And she began to calm down as her story was embodied in a new family, where she was safe. And, you know, it's interesting, Jason after that group, you know, as we just sat with her and And I've said every part of you as welcome. Other people began to say, Oh, I'm experiencing a part of my own story. And finding that place of belonging is what gives us hope. Because sad, most trauma occurs in relationships. Think that healing will take place outside of relationships as crazy.

Jason Sullivan: 15:39

I told clients a lot of times that trying to find ourselves alone is impossible, because all of our senses are pointed out. And I can't see myself, I can't hear myself, but you can. And so in order for me to gain perspective, or even to gain a picture, I need someone on the outside, that's trustworthy, that can see me that can feel me or hear me, just someone that can experience.

Unknown: 16:09

Yes. And that often is not going to be in our family of origin, especially if that's where trauma occurred. And so I'm sure you talked about that in re parenting, and yes, we can repair it ourselves. But if you're going it alone, you're gonna get stuck.

Jason Sullivan: 16:30

Absolutely.

Unknown: 16:31

And so there's something about telling our stories, truly, in a safe community, with other people who are doing the same, that allows us to go from imagination, to incarnation, to recreations. And that's where there's hope.

Jason Sullivan: 16:54

And it makes that that experience of incarnation invaluable, because hope is only experienced when you're embodied. It is.

Unknown: 17:08

And we live in a world that encourages us to be disembodied, to live at a distance from our bodies. So produce, achieve, think, but to actually be in our bodies, and maybe feel what you felt when you were seven, when you were 14. But you know, if you were just by yourself doing that, that could be scary. It could plunge you into those old behaviors of see I am on my own, and no one can help me and I can't trust anyone and all trauma responses.

Jason Sullivan: 17:53

Absolutely. Absolutely. I was thinking about this the other day, and I was having a discussion with a friend. Now, I love social media, and I'm not against it. We actually are broadcasting on social media, we advertise on social media. I really like social media and a lot of ways. But it's interesting to me that with the advent of social media, the rise of apps to distort are the appearance of come

Unknown: 18:22

for front. Oh, how interesting. I

Jason Sullivan: 18:25

mean, you go back to 2007, when the iPhone was was released, how many photo filters were there? Back then. Okay, the more social media has come online, the less we want to be visible in a natural way. We want to have control of our visibility, and distort in many ways who we are, which keeps us isolated, even in the middle of social media.

Unknown: 18:51

Yes. And so I think that that has been intensified also by the pandemic, which has given us all these ways that we can show up for events, but we don't have to be there in person. And there's many benefits to that. We've certainly streamlined streamline things if that's what the goal is. And but I think there it has taken us further and further away from the thing that you wrote about, about the physiology of trauma, which always begins in the body. Absolutely. Because a seven year old maybe cannot make sense. Mom is mentally ill and dad is drinking too much but feels I'm alone. And when I have this feeling, the best thing for me to do is not think about it. Or the best thing for me to do is to go find some cookies and eat them. Or the best thing for me too. do is to watch television show and distract myself. And that keeps everybody else happy. And it keeps me from feeling things that I don't know what to do with.

Jason Sullivan: 20:16

And so in many ways, keeping the body busy, really does redirect us from addressing the need for embrace or the need for community. It's a very wide ranging coping mechanism. It is, I was reading Joseph Ledoux. I don't I don't know if a lot of our listeners know that. But Ledoux is, he's a neuroscientist. And he has been over the years he's very, he writes a lot on physiology. But lately, he's been writing about the limitations of medication towards anxiety and depression. And what he says is that we tend to look at anxiety as only based in the limbic system. And so, and as a neuroscientist, he will explain it, the medial prefrontal cortex is delay all of these things, he really does great, a great job with this. But he said that even the major companies like GlaxoSmithKline, they're they're steering away from research, even in developing new medications. And he said that the main reason is because it doesn't deal with how our brain perceives trauma, or how it perceives anxiety, and there's no medication that can do that.

Unknown: 21:41

No, because it just is treating the behaviors. So people think that if I change my behavior, if I can get rid of the anxiety, or if I can stop drinking so much, or if I can stop being so angry all the time, then I'm healed from trauma. No, no, no. That's, that's a partial healing. As I said, healing is a force that wants to come for all of us, for every part of us. And I think even as you know, I'm 63 years old, and I'm aware that this work is ongoing in my own life. And sometimes stories from my childhood or young adult, life will come to mind just happened to me this weekend. And my first thought was, well, why do you need to deal with that now? I mean, you're basically okay. And I feel like that internal dialogue, that fighting, you know, there's also this voice of healing that says, because I want every part of you to be healed. That's what wholeheartedness is. And because that what a 13 year old girl, who's still in you matters. Trauma says she doesn't. And when I agree with trauma of, oh, that story's not that big of a deal. Or I'm being too dramatic, then I pick up old behaviors that reinforce that lie that traumas told me, which is I'm on my own. I have to deal with this by myself. Nobody really can be trusted. No one cares. So hope looks like picking up the phone, calling a trusted friend and say, saying, Can I tell you something I've been thinking about today? Can we get together for coffee, talk about it. And that is honoring that part of myself, but also honoring the truth, which is I don't have to deal with this by myself. My family may never be coming for me in the way that I want them to. Just like my client, her family will never come for her in the way that she wants them to. But there are other people who will. And that can be healing.

Jason Sullivan: 24:28

How do you differentiate because I agree. I agree with you. 110%. But I think for some people, it's very difficult to grieve the loss of the idea of family. I think we have two families, the family we have in the family we

Unknown: 24:45

absolutely and we also have the family we we choose. I mean we have three families.

Jason Sullivan: 24:52

Okay, I like this I like where you're going with this.

Unknown: 24:56

So that's part of that grieving if we named the death that my mother will never be able to talk about the sexual abuse that I experienced as a child. And I named that death, the rebirth in that is, I've been able to acknowledge it, and acknowledge how it has impacted my life and my trust of people and my own anxiety and medicating with substances, and have found healing for those behaviors. But I still grieve that my mother will not ever be able to talk about that. And so if I don't want to go back and pick up that old behavior, and so I'm in this alone. I'm not looking for a new mother. But I do think we can flip the idea of family a little bit on its head. Absolutely, that I, I'm a recovering alcoholic. And I often say to people who come into my office, who are struggling with alcoholism, I want to talk to you one alcoholic to another. But in the world of trauma, I want to talk to you as a sister, as a brother, you know, because I'm old as a mother. And it but we have to be willing, first of all, to grieve to let go that the idea, like you said, the family that I thought I should have, and I should have had that family is not going to be true. But can I imagine? And then allow to be incarnate embodied a new family? That's terrifying.

Jason Sullivan: 27:05

Sure, absolutely.

Unknown: 27:08

People aren't going to hurt us again. And yet, that's how we ascend into hope. It's not just death and rebirth. It's ascension. And that's where the hope is.

Jason Sullivan: 27:27

The idea of ascension, I think it has so many connotations. But there's a sense of royalty, that comes with the ascension, right that we saw it not too long ago with the passing of the Queen, and the Charles to the throne, regardless of views on King Charles, the idea of ascension coming up into your own or to the light. It's, it's a terrifying feeling. Because you have to really embrace who you are even at the cost of it being good or great.

Unknown: 28:07

Such a powerful sentence, because trauma whispers to us relentlessly. You're not worth more.

Jason Sullivan: 28:20

Absolutely.

Unknown: 28:21

And as the poet wh Auden wrote, most of us would rather be ruined than be changed. I is that, because trauma has told us all these lies, that if I keep going back to my mother, that we need to have this conversation that brings meaning and healing and repair. I'm not willing, first of all, to let go of something that and to be open, that repair may look different for me. Now, there are some people who maybe can go back and talk to their parents, and can talk to their siblings, and I'm all for that. But I think that trauma wants us to get stuck. It literally as you know, probably from the work you've done on physiology, trauma literally freezes, the brain freezes the brain from side to side. So that means the side of my brain that has facts cannot make meaning of those facts, right. And then that just leaves me anxious, and depressed or angry or busy, or people pleasing. And then it freezes the brain from top to bottom, which is the part of the brain that engages with other people. And it keeps me stuck. Well, I've got to work this out with my mother. That might not be where the hope is.

Jason Sullivan: 29:59

Absolutely But I

Unknown: 30:00

do need to do it within the context of some embodied community. We're just as my dear client experienced as we put our hands on our hearts, there was the sense of this is a place where you can be safe, where you are warranted, where you are every part of you is welcome.

Jason Sullivan: 30:29

Isn't it interesting? talking in terms of trauma and the heart, there are two concepts of heart maybe more. But one of the most common things that I find with panic attacks is the fear of a heart attack.

Unknown: 30:46

Yes, so true. Yes.

Jason Sullivan: 30:50

And I always think this is interesting, because the heart has always been associated. Well, not always, because before it was the stomach, back about 2000 years ago, it was the stomach that was supposed to be the source of love. But now we go with the heart. We talk about heartbreak. And how amazing is it that when we have panic of fear that that tells us that we are out of control of our own body? How fascinating is that our heart is the thing that gets the most emphasis.

Unknown: 31:24

That is fascinating. And, and even as you talk about, perhaps the anxiety, and even real physiological symptoms are rising, because we our heart is breaking. And unfortunately, we have learned many of us, since we were children, to despise a broken heart. So then when that anxiety that heart pounding starts, it's like, I can't tell anyone this, I must be crazy. What's wrong with me, I need some drugs, I need something to make this calmed down. And I believe love Tell does not despise a broken heart. Know that a loving community. That love personified does not despise the broken heart. And so that anxiety can be a cue of there's worth here. There's brokenness, there's pain that I'm worthy of being wanted, accepted, of being loved. And Jason, I can't quite explain it. But it's far easier for us to tell ourselves see, I'm not worthy of it. And here's the reasons, here's my failures. Here's my quirks. Here's my mental health challenge. Challenges. I'm, I certainly can't tell anyone this because for sure, I'll be alone. That is easier for us to believe maybe you have a theory about that, than it is for us to do that work of ascending into believing I didn't get what I deserved, and I am worthy of something more.

Jason Sullivan: 33:15

Don't you wonder, sometimes that there's a part of us that that looks and feels broken and in need of community, but also, I don't have a great word for it, but almost like an emotional surgery. Like we're not like we were missing something. I think that especially with trauma, those bonds that were supposed to be there they are. Because Because even in neurological development in childhood, I think this is maybe a better example. If a parent is absent, the abdication of that role is still an exam. And so I my my parents is still teaching me what a parent is, even if they're not there. And so I grew up with the idea that this parents language is quiet, it's silence. It's all those stages where I need reassurance of that I'm not inferior or that I can be autonomous, that I do have ability. When silence is there, I think it reinforces that self talk.

Unknown: 34:29

Such such a good point. And of course then for some it's worse than silence. It's negative words. It's harsh words. It's been literal, belittling words. It's dismissive words. And so it reinforces those beliefs. And it's why I love the work of therapy because I hope that we are bridge to greater community We give people a taste of hope that you can be seen. You can be soothed. And you can be secure, no matter what you say, what you feel, how you interpret something. And that is the definition of healing from trauma. I feel saying, I feel soothed, I feel secure.

Jason Sullivan: 35:26

Oh, I love that. That's a very, it's a very all encompassing feeling. from infancy, the level of dependence we have, and the lack of language that we have to communicate that dependence. I think that stays with us in many ways. Because when you're trauma, when you go through trauma, and you're looking for hope, the words just are not always there. And we have this natural tendency to hide. We feel shame, because of trauma. Trauma communicates, like you said that, maybe I'm not enough, maybe I'm not okay. And we have the tendency to hide behind anything that will cover us,

Unknown: 36:15

which perpetuates shade, and then makes us want to hide even more. And so I know, I know, I'm the queen of this, but I just want to encourage anyone that's listening. As counter intuitive as it feels as little as it has happened in your life. The way to get out of that icky, icky place of isolated shame is to move toward a trustworthy person.

Jason Sullivan: 36:46

Do you remember? There was this book? I can't remember hearing you might have told me to read this a long, long time ago, Rene Olson, stumbling toward faith.

Unknown: 36:57

Yes. I don't know if I told you.

Jason Sullivan: 37:02

You might have I loved this book. I think I've read it. I don't know how many times over the years. But I also got to know Rene. And for our listeners, if you can find a copy of this book, I would really encourage you to listen because Renee was someone who had been traumatized on such deep levels, levels that many I still have trouble even beginning to imagine. Yes. She began to work changed her name to Renee, which if I remember right means hope, right is that I'm not sure why she she chose it is something like hope i Maybe I'm wrong. Someone please fact check me and email. But then she went through more trauma. Because as she began to discover herself, she found that a lot of her beliefs didn't line up with her publisher. And she lost again. And again, and again. And in her later days before she passed, I messaged her and I said, Renee, I need I need all the copies of your book that you have left. I said I want to give them to my staff, I want to I really think that this is such a powerful thing. And so she did, she sent every copy that she had. And it was the best purchase I've ever made. Because I it was a great opportunity to spread her story. And she sat down and she made individual comments for every person. She wanted to know who was getting that book. And she wanted to tell them personally. And then she made bookmarks, the younger part of her from her trauma sit down and made individual bookmarks for everybody. And towards the very end. She was she was married to an amazing guy. This guy. He was so supportive, and was really with her every step of the way. And what I saw in her last days, even though she was dying, and had been through pure health for so many years, she found her humor. And she found her smile and she found her laughter and it was absolutely the most heartbreaking hopeful story that I think I've ever experienced, because anybody would have a reason to be bitter and angry at the world. Renee had that. I think she had the market cornered because she had been rejected on so many levels. But she found herself and she embraced it. And her story I think from beginning to And no matter how much trauma she went through, she found her community. She found them great. Right?

Unknown: 40:09

It reminds me of a quotation that my daughter, who has experienced a lot of trauma in her life just sent to me. I'm looking it up right now. She just sent it to me this weekend, and I feel like it really speaks to what you're saying. I'm trying to think, who said it. Let's see if I can find it here. The quotation is, my story isn't pleasant. It's not sweet and luminous, like the invented stories. It talks up folly, and bewilderment of madness and dream, like the life of all people who no longer want to lie to themselves. And I think that I can't read my writing here to see who wrote that. So I can't give the right credit. I think that describes this process that I'm invested in for myself, and for those that I have the privilege of doing life with, of telling our stories, truly, that do include deaths, and, and rebirths, and grieving. And, unfortunately, sometimes going two steps forward and three steps back as we pick up old behaviors. Because, you know, when you've been doing it for 510 2040 years, we're talking about in that an act of enormous heroic courage to believe that there actually could be something more, but I have to let go. So often, I will have people do this simple exercise, I will have them hold their hands like this and kind of in a meditation, imagine the things that they're holding. And then, and even squeeze them and feel how that affects the body. You'll often feel your heart start to raise your shoulders get tense, your stomach turn a little bit. It's exhausting. And then after about a minute of that, to turn your hands like this. And, but not just letting go but imagine that there is someone holding that with you. So powerful. It's not a magical moment, where it's still there. But you're not alone. Trauma wants to get us alone and kill us.

Jason Sullivan: 43:16

No, absolutely. Because it repeats, it's a cycle that our body absorbs. And because it's familiar our body. It goes eventually Sorry, I'm stepping over my own words here, but about 85 to 90% of of our limbic system functions on routine and pattern. And so what it experiences repetitively, it considers safe. What is safe is not always what really is safe or good. And so but it reframes the idea of grief and I think this is why it's such an important concept because our prefrontal cortex will tell us, okay, regulate your emotions, feel them out, prioritize and find yourself in the process. But when you look at the medial prefrontal cortex withdrawal, those those those together, people who've been through trauma, their medial prefrontal cortex doesn't light up, not quite as much. If you look at the the fMRI is the brain doesn't really know how to see itself as an individual, which is what that medial prefrontal cortex does. And it makes sense because this is what lights up first, that limbic system is what when information comes in, this lights up, it goes to pattern routine pattern team, and if you have a history of trauma as the pattern, then the physiological change that's necessary is is the process of grief. I mean neural pathways that keep trying to fire What when you change? I mean, this is denial. And you can overlay Elisabeth Kubler Ross's five stages, you can overlay them on top of neuroplasticity. Yes. And it's an amazing thing, because it's not separate from the heart. And it's not separate from the consciousness of hope. It's it's an equal part of the process. And I think we miss that. And I think that this is why a lot of psychologists really don't like physiology, because they see it as something other. But the body experiences these things,

Unknown: 45:42

right. So all trauma work should be physiological. The third thing I have people do after they release this, and imagine maybe someone carrying it with them, is to then take it to their heart. And, and this can take time. And I don't want people to be discouraged by that. The process of change happens over a lifetime. But as I take it to my heart, and imagine what it could be wanting me to ascend into, instead of descending back into holding things so tightly. So that is just a simple embodied meditation that I think could begin to light up some of those pathways in the brain of maybe there's more.

Jason Sullivan: 46:41

And maybe that more is understanding that the part of us that was deemed as unacceptable or unworthy, and needing to be caged is actually something that is Embraceable. lovable, and really desirable. I was thinking, there's this old Johnny Cash song, the beast in me.

Unknown: 47:07

I'm familiar with it.

Jason Sullivan: 47:09

It's such a good song. It says the beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars. And I love those words, because it tells you that frail and fragile bars, they can be easily broken, but we choose to stay in anything. We think we're more dangerous than we are. Now, I wanted to ask you to just before we close out if if we have listeners, and we do have listeners that are struggling, they are holding on through trauma, some of them are experiencing trauma as we speak. What would you say would be for them the first steps, they're experiencing isolation, loneliness, they just kind of the new year just came and went. And they're experiencing those blue Mondays? Yeah, what would you tell them?

Unknown: 48:09

Well, you know, my first instinct is to call a therapist.

Jason Sullivan: 48:13

And that's a great place

Unknown: 48:17

to start to talk to somebody about just where you are right now. Maybe that simple question, what are you afraid to feel? And maybe even just identify that with your to yourself. And so that process of becoming emotionally available to yourself means that I need to take at least 15 minutes, where I'm not distracted by TV, social media, work, my schedule, my children, all the things that you mentioned that we can be distracted by take 15 minutes and think, Okay, what am I feeling? Or what am I afraid to feel? And then secondly, who can I risk trusting this with? Because I think that it as long as we stay alone, we're going to feel trapped. There is something about being cornered in that trap, that if you look at it like this, all you have to do is step out. Which I know can seem enormous when you're depressed when you're anxious when you've been betrayed, when you've talked to a therapist that Did you know good and so are you worth the investment? I hope there's a glimmer if there was a glimmer of hope in there a mustard seed of belief that I want to believe I'm worthy of this investment, then I think there are a lot of resources today online therapy, even that you could start with, it doesn't have to be a perfect start. Just the start, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm afraid to feel. And hopefully from there, you can then go through some of the things that you've talked about in earlier podcasts and that we've talked about today that can give you that vision of ascending above the trauma that really wants to lie to you that this is all there is.

Jason Sullivan: 51:00

Absolutely. It's amazing to me how every movie is designed. And it has been I mean, not just movies, but stories of as far back as you go in history of overcoming and being found. The the idea that we lose everything, and then we find our potential, we find our purpose, we find hope. I think these movies sell and they they repeat, because we want that no, no superhero movie ever had someone who didn't go through failure and loss and pain. Superman was the closest but he still had that issues and issues. He was an orphan. And they've been trying to kill him ever since. So because he's too good to perfect too powerful. People can't relate. But you look at stories all the way back. And it's the same pattern, the same story, I want to be desirable, I want to be the one that's found. I want to be the one that overcomes and so the hunger is there. And the first steps are the toughest

Unknown: 52:11

they are I tell people that the the question that trauma makes all of us ask, is this. And it almost always brings tears to men and women's eyes alike? And that question is, is anyone coming for me? And often, our belief is so strong. For reasons you've described today, that no no one is coming. And so the question that I will ask is will you start by coming for some part of you, whether it's a six year old, who was not chosen on the playground, a 13 year old who was sexually taunted by someone in the locker room, an 18 year old who wasn't given any guidance for the future, a 25 year old who graduated from college and got fired from your first job? Will you come for that part of yourself and say, I'm going to get you a listening ear? I'm going to get you an audience.

Jason Sullivan: 53:28

Absolutely. I have I have one last question. You have written? I always get the number wrong. You're on book number 10 or 11?

Unknown: 53:43

I don't even know. But I think it's more like nine.

Jason Sullivan: 53:46

Okay, all right. See, I always get it wrong. I always want to think you've written like 2030 4050 books. You do a lot on parenting. You had a really great series there with parenting, and I would love it for our listeners. I mean, really, Sharon has such a great picture of parenting, and really lays these things out so well. And so I would say if you're interested in understanding the process of parenting and re parenting and finding hope some of her books will be really, really powerful through the process. As well, while of course, I just think it's a beautiful thing. And I think that you have always had so much to offer in ways of honesty and transparency. And I think this is one of the things that I was so glad to be able to have you on. Because I've always thought that he was just such an honest and transparent person and someone who embodies the ability to overcome that's a powerful Whole thing. And so thank you. Thank you for coming.

Unknown: 55:03

Well, thank you for having me and just putting so much thought into such an important subject. Definitely.

Jason Sullivan: 55:11

Well, thank you so much, Sharon. And do you have any closing thoughts, any any advice that you want to leave people with?

Unknown: 55:19

Well, I think that the subject of hope, where we're so desperate for it. In a world that is, so beat up right now, it's hard to believe in hope. And I'm certainly not wanting to sell a Pollyanna Anna's version of hope that just do a few simple steps, and all this stuff will be easily eradicated and fixed. I don't believe people are machines that need to be fixed. We are bodies and souls and spirits that need to give ourselves permission. Take time. And I would say to take time in two ways to take time for ourselves. So take that 15 minutes a day, that's a way to start. Just acknowledging these are certain things, I feel some things I'm afraid to feel some things, I need some things I don't know where to get that I need. And then take time for the work to produce these things that we are talking about. The thing about those movies, is that, you know, the solution comes in about two hours, right? That's what happens in real life. It's a life time. And there is something about accepting that I'm in this process for my whole life. That is an investment is worth it.

Jason Sullivan: 57:08

I think that's, that's a key word investment that's worth it. It's a beautiful thing. And it ties back to ascension, the idea the concept that you're worth more. And I love that. Sharon, thank you. Once again, thank you so much.

Unknown: 57:26

Thank you for the work you're doing.

Jason Sullivan: 57:27

Well, thank you. Well, guys, we are going to sign out today. You know, it was such a pleasure to have Sharon. I cannot tell you how much we appreciate it. And I would love to have you back. Anytime. That'd be amazing. So, guys, we are closing out. This is our last episode on the series of trauma and overcoming. We're going to start another one that will be on forgiveness, as forgiveness is not the thing you thought it was. When you've been traumatized and you think of forgiveness, those two words don't feel like they go together well. But we're going to demystify that a little bit, dive in unwind what forgiveness is, and you might be a little surprised. So stay tuned, and we will be back next week. This is Jason signing off.

Intro: 58:22

You've been listening to the quiet chaos podcast. Our passion is to talk about anxiety, depression in disorders and answering tough questions, but having fun doing it coming at you with facts, interviews, hard to discuss topics and a little bit more rebellious than your typical mental health show. We hope you've enjoyed it. Make sure to like rate and review and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit us up on Instagram a quiet chaos kW. Remember, there is hope even when your brain tells you there isn't. See you next time on the quiet chaos podcast.